Rev. Derrick Harkins Takes on Lou Dobbs for Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform
May 10, 2007
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LOU DOBBS: Many of the nation's religious leaders are ignoring or pushing back or just simply -- simply negating the idea of a separation of church and state in the argument over our illegal immigration crisis. The Catholic Church, particularly the Los Angeles diocese, has been at the forefront of the push for amnesty. Now, a new coalition of more than 100 mostly evangelical Christians lobbying Congress for amnesty.
The Reverend Derrick Harkins is a member of the coalition, Christians for Comprehensive Immigration Reform. He's joining us tonight from our studios in Washington, D.C.
Good to have you with us.
REV. DERRICK HARKINS, CHRISTIANS FOR COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM: Great to be with you.
DOBBS: Well, now, I got to ask you -- we heard today, we just heard one Catholic priest say that he's got to follow the law of God that doesn't recognize borders. How far are you all going to go here?
HARKINS: Well, I can't speak for the priest that you had on your piece, however, he might be very well talking about the fact that, you know, the gospel tells us that in Christ there's no Jew nor Greek, bond or free. I can't speak for him, but I can understand, at least, the sense of what he was trying to get at.
But I do think it's important to remember that, borders aside, human compassion is always front and center for the church, and it has been and should be.
DOBBS: Sure. Right. And I'm just wondering where your compassion is for those people who are watching their wages decline in the industries in which there is the greatest employment of illegal immigrants. Let's start out with leisure, hospitality, hotels, restaurants, landscaping and construction.
What does -- what is your moral position on behalf of American citizens who, after all, make you possible?
HARKINS: I think one of the best things that could possibly happen in those realms is comprehensive immigration reform, because it brings out of the shadows those people who are being paid without the benefit of medical coverage, without the benefit of other types of insurance, driving down the wage base and brings them into the light.
And meaning, therefore, that the overall base of wages will be a lot more equitable and fair.
DOBBS: Well, let me ask...
HARKINS: The best way to resolve that is to bring those from the shadows into the light.
DOBBS: So, you all, on religious grounds, have decided you're going to support whatever the Senate and the president put forward? Is that right?
HARKINS: No. I think what's important to do is to advocate for compassion, to advocate for understanding.
DOBBS: Hey, I'm with you. I'm compassionate. I bet everybody watching is compassionate. We've got a lot of folks to care about in this country, and I think we all care about every one of them.
HARKINS: But I think the church has every right, as well, to be in the public square, to try to help to inform that ongoing discussion.
DOBBS: OK.
HARKINS: And I think, therefore, whatever the president -- and it is absolutely the responsibility of the president, and the Congress, to come up with that legislation. Not the church.
DOBBS: What are the religious and moral responsibilities of the church when it comes to, say, border security? You don't believe in borders, you said?
HARKINS: I know -- well, you're not quoting me. I think that borders, obviously, are very much a reality, and they do...
DOBBS: Why is that important? Why is that important to you?
HARKINS: Well, we live in a world, unfortunately, where -- where the infiltration of borders doesn't simply mean the issue of illegal immigrants, but it also has implications as far as national security, et cetera.
DOBBS: What was the implication for the state of Israel, following your reasoning, that of the Catholic priest we just quoted?
HARKINS: Well, again -- again, you're coupling me with somebody who's made a very specific...
DOBBS: I'm coupling you with the idea that borders are important. I'm coupling you with the idea that laws are important.
HARKINS: Borders are important. But compassion, again, compassion and an understanding of how that compassion is extended to individuals, is really the front and center responsibility of the church.
DOBBS: Let me ask you a question. Do you know of a more compassionate nation or people on the face of the earth?
HARKINS: Absolutely the United States has -- has its mandate, its legacy of compassion. All the more reason for us to make sure the way in which we deal with this dilemma is done compassionately. All the more reason for the church to be a part of that discussion.
DOBBS: Well, you know, on that one, I would have to say to you, sir, you all are taking up just like any lobbyist. Do you think you ought to lose your tax exception, because you're directly involved in a political issue? If you are on moral grounds or religious grounds, you're involved in a political issue.
HARKINS: But there's a very big difference between being astute as to public policy issues and being partisan. The issue of immigration reform doesn't mean that anybody has to have a partisan stance in this.
DOBBS: Well, it sounds like you have lined up for amnesty here pretty clearly. That puts you in counterpoint and in opposition, it seems, to, based on the surveys I've seen, about 60 percent of the Protestant Church-going members, according to the Zogby poll last year, up about 65 percent against the membership of the Catholic Church.
HARKINS: Last month, the Zogby poll that -- excuse me, "USA Today"/Gallup poll indicated that 78 percent of Americans believe that some path, earned path to...
DOBBS: I thought that you would be more interested in the faithful. And I'm quoting a poll of the faithful.
HARKINS: Well, I would say to you that I dare say that that poll, also, the one that I just quoted, also no doubt reflects a significant number of persons who are part of churches. I think the church has that mandate, as the Bible says, to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with our God. And in walking humbly, it means we've got to be prayerful about how we address a very difficult situation.
DOBBS: How humble it is, Reverend, when you start getting into -- you ignore separation of church and state in this country, one of our fundamental values...
HARKINS: I think one of the most...
DOBBS: How humble -- please, hear me out.
HARKINS: Sure. I'm sorry.
DOBBS: How humble is it when you move from saving souls to focusing on public policy?
HARKINS: Well, again, I would dare say that this is not -- when you say public policy, this is people policy. These are children, these are mothers. These are...
DOBBS: Reverend, all I can -- about all I can say here, being out of time, is hallelujah. We appreciate you being with us.
HARKINS: Well, God bless you, Lou.
DOBBS: Thank you very much. Reverend Harkins.
A reminder now to vote in our poll. The question is do you believe the political adventurism of our religious leaders is a threat to our Constitution and the separation of church and state? Yes or no. Cast your vote at LouDobbs.com.
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