Unresolved Problem - Torture: Jim Wallis Interview

By Bill O'Reilly - Fox News
Friday, June 16, 2006

O'REILLY: In the "Unresolved Problem" segment tonight, despite the lack of hard evidence, the torture accusations continue in the war on terror. In Canada, lawyers for some of the 17 alleged terrorists arrested last week say they are being tortured. Maybe we should close down Canada.

And today, some religious Americans took out a newspaper ad saying, quote, "Let America abolish torture now, without exception." My question, what torture? Joining us now from Washington, Reverend Jim Wallis, the author of the book "God's Politics." The reverend did sign that advertisement, along with Jimmy Carter and a whole bunch of other people.

What torture are we talking about here, sir?

REV. JIM WALLIS, AUTHOR, "GOD'S POLITICS": Hi, Bill. I signed the statement along with a number of other religious leaders -- evangelical leaders, Catholic cardinals, imams, rabbis -- because we believe torture is a moral issue, not a political one. Torture violates the dignity, human dignity, of those created in the image of God.

O'REILLY: But the ad is very specific. "Let America abolish torture now." And I want to know what torture we're talking about.

WALLIS: Well, as you know, Bill, there are lots of suspicions and allegations, great fears around the world, about the use of torture. You know, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, the secret prisons all over Europe. And so I would say let the Red Cross in, let's finds out.

O'REILLY: Yes, but the Red Cross is in Guantanamo. The international Red Cross is there. It's on the base. It has access. Any time they want to go in, they can.

Look, here's my problem with this. In the theoretical sense, you're right. I don't want torture. I don't think any American wants anybody's eyes gouged out, fingers cut off, electrodes attached to their genitals. But an ad like this, Reverend, tells the world America is sanctioning torture, sir. And in my opinion, in my investigation, that is not true.

WALLIS: Well, Bill, you know, the ad's signed by religious leaders across the political spectrum. They voted both ways in the last election.

O'REILLY: I know. I scolded Reverend Haggard today for signing the ad.

WALLIS: Well, that's because this is a moral issue, a religious matter. And there are serious allegations around the world about the practice of torture.

O'REILLY: OK, then why...

WALLIS: And so we have condemned this in word, but maybe not in deed.

O'REILLY: OK. But Reverend, let's be fair. Let's be fair to our country. Can we not give the United States of America break? All you had to do was, instead of saying "Let America abolish torture now," say "Let the world abolish torture now." Then you would get Al Qaeda in there, you would get Iran in there, you'd get the bad guys in there, instead of making your own country the bad guy, Reverend.

WALLIS: I will sign any statement, Bill, about Al Qaeda and Iran. We are American religious leaders, and torture degrades not just the captive, but the captor. The soul of America is at stake, here. So people like John McCain have been concerned about torture.

O'REILLY: OK. Everybody can talk about it generally and in theory, and you get...

WALLIS: So let's bring in international observers who are respected across the world to really examine and see if, in fact, torture is going on. That's fair enough, isn't it, Bill?

O'REILLY: Reverend, Reverend. I don't have any problem with the commission going to Guantanamo Bay. They'll see the same thing I saw, OK?

WALLIS: Well, let them go, and let them take a look.

O'REILLY: The E.U. did in an investigation. I don't know whether you're aware of this or not. The E.U. did an investigation on the so- called rendition prisons in Eastern Europe. And they came up with nothing. Zero. Nada.

So, again, Reverend, look. I'm appealing to you and Jimmy Carter and Cardinal McCarrick to be fair to your own country, Reverend. I don't think that's too much to ask, sir. I'll give you the last word.

WALLIS: We wouldn't be faithful to our own country if we didn't raise these deep moral concerns about the alleged behavior of our nation. Torture not only doesn't work, it really degrades us as a nation. So let's be sure that torture isn't going on. Not just in word, not to condemn it in word, but to make sure we're not doing this in deed. This is our concern, and I think it stands for itself.

O'REILLY: All right. Then we should have had "alleged" in that ad. But I appreciate your point of view and you coming on and talking about it, Reverend. Thank you very much.

WALLIS: Thanks, Bill.

O'REILLY: Plenty more ahead as "The Factor" moves along this evening. Since the National Guard was deployed on the border, illegal crossings are down. What a shock.

And what does Bernard Goldberg think about the Ann Coulter controversy? He'll be here, and we hope to stay tuned to those reports.